Glossary entry

Italian term or phrase:

scherzare coi fanti

English translation:

let\'s leave religion out of this

Added to glossary by Sarah Gregg
Aug 26, 2010 17:20
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Italian term

scherzare coi fanti

Italian to English Other Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
In a translation about pumpkins (!) and in the context of the "zucchetto dei cardinali", I've come across the maxim: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi". I can see what it's getting at (more or less), but can't think how best to render the idea in English. Any ideas? Thanks, Sarah.

Discussion

Sarah Gregg (asker) Aug 30, 2010:
"The link needs to be discreetly explained in English"
Yes indeed Giles, hope that's what I've managed to do :-). I'm sort of going off squash after all this!
Giles Watson Aug 29, 2010:
Anche Hi Sarah,

I don't think that pesky "anche" has to refer to anything specific in the preceding discourse. All it does is to signal another meaning of "zucca" in colloquial Italian, which is then illustrated by the "zuccotto" example.

The link needs to be discreetly explained in English, where "pumpkin" doesn't have the "skull" meaning ("nut" is quite a close equivalent, though).

Compare the ING Direct websites in the UK and Italy (ingdirect.co.uk and ingdirect.it). The orange-themed colour scheme is the pretty much same but the UK site lacks the cucurbitaceous element ;-)
Sarah Gregg (asker) Aug 28, 2010:
Giles, you're obviously quite right, but in this particular case the line is a complete throwaway introducing an otherwise straightforward text on culinary aspects of the "zucca". The "anche" I suppose is linked to the "ma la zucca è soprattutto..." che segue.... boh!!! Anyway thanks to you all for your customary great help and on with the next one.
BdiL Aug 27, 2010:
@Giles Watson Complimenti! Evidentemente lo studio dell'enologia italica porta ottimi risultati anche in altri campi. Se zuccotto/zucca fossero comparsi prima (con il contesto originale, e, comunque, a che cosa si riferisce quell'"anche"? cioè che c'è prima dello zuccotto?) le preziose spiegazioni dei colleghi avrebbero subito una sfrondatura (semplificazione) e ci saremmo concentrati sulla ricerca di un gioco di parole simile in inglese. Temo che sia assai difficile e in specie io non ne trovo soluzione. Poi (è sottinteso) il detto è assolutamente appropriato al contesto. Infine, ma manca il collegamento allo "skullcap", mi piace molto il "jeux de mots" di D. Zambrini. Per dare una versione accettabile in inglese non basterà mai il grido di dolore: "contesto ampio!!". Maurizio
Katia DG Aug 27, 2010:
@ Giles Watson: I like your suggestion very much. It's the most reasonable interpretation I can think of.
Giles Watson Aug 26, 2010:
Missing link The piece seems to be a round-up of ideas associated with "zucca". This is fair enough but "zucca" in the sense of "skull", which is not obvious in English, is not made explicit in the text you have given us, although "anche" hints at it (to answer Phil's question).

The gist is: "Zucca can also mean 'skull', as in a cardinal's skullcap (zuccotto), but let's not bring religion into this. First and foremost, the pumpkin is a major feature of traditional Italian cookery".
philgoddard Aug 26, 2010:
It could be just free association - the writer is talking about zucche, or zucchini, and says "that sounds a bit like zucchetto. but let's leave religion out of this". Again, it would help to know what comes before this.
philgoddard Aug 26, 2010:
I don't think it is "completely out of context". I think there's some kind of play on words here - a zucchetto is a skullcap worn by Catholic priests, and a zucca is a marrow. It would help to know what comes before this (ie why does it begin "C'è anche"?). I have a feeling the pun is untranslatable, and you'll probably have to leave it out. Either way, none of the answers so far explains what the phrase means in this particular context.
Sarah Gregg (asker) Aug 26, 2010:
Firstly thanks to you all for the answers so far. Phil, it's a throwaway phrase completely out of context with the rest of the text which talks about the "zucca" as a vegetable: "C’è anche lo zucchetto dei cardinali (scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi), ma la zucca è soprattutto una parte importante della cucina popolare." Don't know if that helps much!
philgoddard Aug 26, 2010:
Could you give us the full Italian context please? What comes before and after this?

Proposed translations

+3
5 hrs
Selected

let's leave religion out of this

See the discussion entries.
We still don't have full context (hence the 3), but I think this is the approximate meaning.
Peer comment(s):

agree casper (X) : Yes, I agree with you
5 hrs
agree Shera Lyn Parpia
7 hrs
agree Giles Watson
10 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Great help as ever... thanks to you all, Sarah. "
+1
14 mins

don't mix the sacred with the profane

The meaning is: "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" (see reference below), or "Joke with people but don't mess with the Saints".
Another quotation: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" is a proverb that means, more or less, that you may joke with unimportant people ( fanti, that means simple soldiers) but not with your superiors (santi = saints, intending important people). I think that "fanti" and "santi" are choosen because of the rhyme, not for else.
Here you can find a definition and some more examples, in case you need other religion-related proverbs:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:j6hQAakQoc8J:www.h...
Peer comment(s):

agree Fiorsam : a good non-literal translation if that's what the asker is looking for.
6 mins
neutral Oliver Lawrence : agree with the translation, not sure about the explanation
8 mins
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+1
16 mins
Italian term (edited): scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi

Don't mix the sacred with the profane

Pervasi dal senso dell’onnipotenza non si rendono conto di quanto poco interessano alla gente queste esternazioni personali, anzi infastidiscono memori del detto “scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi”.

Pervaded by a feeling of omnipotence, they fail to realise how little people are interested in their personal attitudes and statements, which are, as a matter of fact, rather annoying, since the saying "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" still lingers in people's minds.

http://shortify.com/10960
Peer comment(s):

agree Oliver Lawrence
2 hrs
Thanks, Oliver Lawrence
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+3
11 mins

jest with knaves...

It's a quote from Puccini's opera Tosca, where at the very beginning of the opera the Sacristan says to the painter Cavaradossi: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" translated variously as "Jest with knaves and leave the saints alone".

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Note added at 19 mins (2010-08-26 17:40:09 GMT)
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Sorry I didn't complete the phrase. I wanted to say that there are a number of translations, but they all carry the same meaning.

Cavaradossi (al Sagrestano)
Dammi i colori!
(Il Sagrestano eseguisce. Cavaradossi dipinge con rapidità e si sofferma spesso a riguardare il proprio lavoro: il Sagrestano va e viene, portando una catinella entro la quale continua a lavare i pennelli.)
(A un tratto Cavaradossi si ristà di dipingere; leva di tasca un medaglione contenente una miniatura e gli occhi suoi vanno dal medaglione al quadro).
Recondita armonia
di bellezze diverse!...
È bruna Floria,
l'ardente amante mia...

Sagrestano
(a mezza voce, come brontolando)
Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi!
(s'allontana per prendere l'acqua onde pulire i pennelli)

English translation (one of many)
CAVARADOSSI
Give me my paints.
The Sacristan does so. Cavaradossi paints rapidly, with frequent pauses to observe his work. The Sacristan comes and goes; he carries a small basin in which he continues his job of washing the brushes.
Suddenly Cavaradossi leaves his painting: from his pocket he takes a medallion with a portrait in miniature, and his eyes travel from the miniature to his own work.

Oh hidden harmony
Of contrasting beauties! Floria
Is dark, my love and passion…

SACRISTAN
to himself
Jest with knaves and neglect the saints …
Peer comment(s):

neutral Oliver Lawrence : I think Puccini was quoting a proverb which was already well known and which still stands on its own without being considered a Tosca quote
2 mins
Possibilissimo. Ma l'ho ricercato ampamente in passato e non l'ho trovato in nessun altro contesto, compreso il dizionario dei proverbi italiani.
agree Mr Murray (X) : Yes, you're right. I also have a libretto that translates it as "he scorns the saints and jests with the ungodly."
11 mins
Many thanks!
agree Chiara D'Andrea
1 hr
Grazie!
agree Fabrizio Zambuto
15 hrs
Grazie Fabrizio!
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1 hr

religion is no laughing matter

Non è molto poetico ma questo è il senso.

http://dizionari.kataweb.it/

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Note added at 1 ora (2010-08-26 18:57:49 GMT)
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Ovviamente vale per la frase intera: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi".
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17 hrs

you can mock Halloween but you must respect All Hallows

VERY free adaptation ;-)

why not play with words?
All Hallows = All Saints

it would keep the reference to the pumpkin traditionally associated to this religous+pagan event

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Note added at 17 hrs (2010-08-27 10:29:39 GMT)
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p.s. saints referred to in the second part of the proverb (cherza coi fanti, e lascia stare i santi)
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