Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Italian term or phrase:
scherzare coi fanti
English translation:
let\'s leave religion out of this
Added to glossary by
Sarah Gregg
Aug 26, 2010 17:20
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Italian term
scherzare coi fanti
Italian to English
Other
Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
In a translation about pumpkins (!) and in the context of the "zucchetto dei cardinali", I've come across the maxim: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi". I can see what it's getting at (more or less), but can't think how best to render the idea in English. Any ideas? Thanks, Sarah.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
5 hrs
Selected
let's leave religion out of this
See the discussion entries.
We still don't have full context (hence the 3), but I think this is the approximate meaning.
We still don't have full context (hence the 3), but I think this is the approximate meaning.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
casper (X)
: Yes, I agree with you
5 hrs
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agree |
Shera Lyn Parpia
7 hrs
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agree |
Giles Watson
10 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Great help as ever... thanks to you all, Sarah. "
+1
14 mins
don't mix the sacred with the profane
The meaning is: "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" (see reference below), or "Joke with people but don't mess with the Saints".
Another quotation: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" is a proverb that means, more or less, that you may joke with unimportant people ( fanti, that means simple soldiers) but not with your superiors (santi = saints, intending important people). I think that "fanti" and "santi" are choosen because of the rhyme, not for else.
Here you can find a definition and some more examples, in case you need other religion-related proverbs:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:j6hQAakQoc8J:www.h...
Another quotation: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" is a proverb that means, more or less, that you may joke with unimportant people ( fanti, that means simple soldiers) but not with your superiors (santi = saints, intending important people). I think that "fanti" and "santi" are choosen because of the rhyme, not for else.
Here you can find a definition and some more examples, in case you need other religion-related proverbs:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:j6hQAakQoc8J:www.h...
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_english/poetry_literature/2421814-fante.html
http://www.tube.lankaeuro.com/video/vAwBjaC6Xo4/Placido-Domingo-Tosca-Recondita-Armonia.html
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Fiorsam
: a good non-literal translation if that's what the asker is looking for.
6 mins
|
neutral |
Oliver Lawrence
: agree with the translation, not sure about the explanation
8 mins
|
+1
16 mins
Italian term (edited):
scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi
Don't mix the sacred with the profane
Pervasi dal senso dell’onnipotenza non si rendono conto di quanto poco interessano alla gente queste esternazioni personali, anzi infastidiscono memori del detto “scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi”.
Pervaded by a feeling of omnipotence, they fail to realise how little people are interested in their personal attitudes and statements, which are, as a matter of fact, rather annoying, since the saying "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" still lingers in people's minds.
http://shortify.com/10960
Pervaded by a feeling of omnipotence, they fail to realise how little people are interested in their personal attitudes and statements, which are, as a matter of fact, rather annoying, since the saying "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" still lingers in people's minds.
http://shortify.com/10960
+3
11 mins
jest with knaves...
It's a quote from Puccini's opera Tosca, where at the very beginning of the opera the Sacristan says to the painter Cavaradossi: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" translated variously as "Jest with knaves and leave the saints alone".
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Note added at 19 mins (2010-08-26 17:40:09 GMT)
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Sorry I didn't complete the phrase. I wanted to say that there are a number of translations, but they all carry the same meaning.
Cavaradossi (al Sagrestano)
Dammi i colori!
(Il Sagrestano eseguisce. Cavaradossi dipinge con rapidità e si sofferma spesso a riguardare il proprio lavoro: il Sagrestano va e viene, portando una catinella entro la quale continua a lavare i pennelli.)
(A un tratto Cavaradossi si ristà di dipingere; leva di tasca un medaglione contenente una miniatura e gli occhi suoi vanno dal medaglione al quadro).
Recondita armonia
di bellezze diverse!...
È bruna Floria,
l'ardente amante mia...
Sagrestano
(a mezza voce, come brontolando)
Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi!
(s'allontana per prendere l'acqua onde pulire i pennelli)
English translation (one of many)
CAVARADOSSI
Give me my paints.
The Sacristan does so. Cavaradossi paints rapidly, with frequent pauses to observe his work. The Sacristan comes and goes; he carries a small basin in which he continues his job of washing the brushes.
Suddenly Cavaradossi leaves his painting: from his pocket he takes a medallion with a portrait in miniature, and his eyes travel from the miniature to his own work.
Oh hidden harmony
Of contrasting beauties! Floria
Is dark, my love and passion…
SACRISTAN
to himself
Jest with knaves and neglect the saints …
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Note added at 19 mins (2010-08-26 17:40:09 GMT)
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Sorry I didn't complete the phrase. I wanted to say that there are a number of translations, but they all carry the same meaning.
Cavaradossi (al Sagrestano)
Dammi i colori!
(Il Sagrestano eseguisce. Cavaradossi dipinge con rapidità e si sofferma spesso a riguardare il proprio lavoro: il Sagrestano va e viene, portando una catinella entro la quale continua a lavare i pennelli.)
(A un tratto Cavaradossi si ristà di dipingere; leva di tasca un medaglione contenente una miniatura e gli occhi suoi vanno dal medaglione al quadro).
Recondita armonia
di bellezze diverse!...
È bruna Floria,
l'ardente amante mia...
Sagrestano
(a mezza voce, come brontolando)
Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi!
(s'allontana per prendere l'acqua onde pulire i pennelli)
English translation (one of many)
CAVARADOSSI
Give me my paints.
The Sacristan does so. Cavaradossi paints rapidly, with frequent pauses to observe his work. The Sacristan comes and goes; he carries a small basin in which he continues his job of washing the brushes.
Suddenly Cavaradossi leaves his painting: from his pocket he takes a medallion with a portrait in miniature, and his eyes travel from the miniature to his own work.
Oh hidden harmony
Of contrasting beauties! Floria
Is dark, my love and passion…
SACRISTAN
to himself
Jest with knaves and neglect the saints …
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Oliver Lawrence
: I think Puccini was quoting a proverb which was already well known and which still stands on its own without being considered a Tosca quote
2 mins
|
Possibilissimo. Ma l'ho ricercato ampamente in passato e non l'ho trovato in nessun altro contesto, compreso il dizionario dei proverbi italiani.
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agree |
Mr Murray (X)
: Yes, you're right. I also have a libretto that translates it as "he scorns the saints and jests with the ungodly."
11 mins
|
Many thanks!
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agree |
Chiara D'Andrea
1 hr
|
Grazie!
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agree |
Fabrizio Zambuto
15 hrs
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Grazie Fabrizio!
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1 hr
religion is no laughing matter
Non è molto poetico ma questo è il senso.
http://dizionari.kataweb.it/
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Note added at 1 ora (2010-08-26 18:57:49 GMT)
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Ovviamente vale per la frase intera: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi".
http://dizionari.kataweb.it/
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Note added at 1 ora (2010-08-26 18:57:49 GMT)
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Ovviamente vale per la frase intera: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi".
17 hrs
you can mock Halloween but you must respect All Hallows
VERY free adaptation ;-)
why not play with words?
All Hallows = All Saints
it would keep the reference to the pumpkin traditionally associated to this religous+pagan event
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Note added at 17 hrs (2010-08-27 10:29:39 GMT)
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p.s. saints referred to in the second part of the proverb (cherza coi fanti, e lascia stare i santi)
why not play with words?
All Hallows = All Saints
it would keep the reference to the pumpkin traditionally associated to this religous+pagan event
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2010-08-27 10:29:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
p.s. saints referred to in the second part of the proverb (cherza coi fanti, e lascia stare i santi)
Discussion
Yes indeed Giles, hope that's what I've managed to do :-). I'm sort of going off squash after all this!
I don't think that pesky "anche" has to refer to anything specific in the preceding discourse. All it does is to signal another meaning of "zucca" in colloquial Italian, which is then illustrated by the "zuccotto" example.
The link needs to be discreetly explained in English, where "pumpkin" doesn't have the "skull" meaning ("nut" is quite a close equivalent, though).
Compare the ING Direct websites in the UK and Italy (ingdirect.co.uk and ingdirect.it). The orange-themed colour scheme is the pretty much same but the UK site lacks the cucurbitaceous element ;-)
The gist is: "Zucca can also mean 'skull', as in a cardinal's skullcap (zuccotto), but let's not bring religion into this. First and foremost, the pumpkin is a major feature of traditional Italian cookery".