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Seemingly
repulse

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

you can only lead a horse to the water, you can\'t make it drink.

Spanish translation:

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver

Added to glossary by Phoenix III
Jul 7, 2017 17:45
6 yrs ago
35 viewers *
English term

you can only lead a horse to the water, you can\'t make it drink.

English to Spanish Art/Literary Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
Hola, compañeros:

Me preguntaba si alguien conoce un equivalente en español similar a la expresión "you can only lead a horse to the water, you can't make it drink". Básicamente, significa que puedes decirle a alguien lo que hay que hacer o cuál es la opción correcta, pero no puedes obligarlo a nada.

Contexto:
"In a way, we're even doing her a favor. Her men are dying in there. I offered my help, you did, but she doesn't want it - you can only lead a horse to the water, you can't make it drink."

Mil gracias

Ana
Proposed translations (Spanish)
4 +2 No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver
4 +8 no hay peor sordo que el que no quiere oír
3 +7 no se puede ayudar a quien no se deja
3 +7 Treinta monjes y un abad no pueden hacer beber a un asno contra su voluntad
4 +4 Puedes llevar a un caballo hasta el abrevadero, pero no obligarlo a beber
Change log

Jul 11, 2017 12:19: Phoenix III Created KOG entry

Discussion

Phoenix III Jul 11, 2017:
@ Asker Thanks so much!
JohnMcDove Jul 11, 2017:
IMHO, I think it is a matter of right register. Like in "American" you may say nowadays, "Teach them to read, buy them books, and what do they do -- eat the covers.", which is "ignoring good advice". Probably we could translate that one literally and "get away with murder", and the same with this one. And yes, I think that every single one of the answers provided are fine, and answer the question. "Un equivalente español SIMILAR a la expresion". As I see it, "no hay peor sordo que el que no quiere oír" is similar in concept, and close enough to fit the bill, and it is a common "idiom". At any rate, the ball is at Ana's court, and she should play it as best as she likes... ;-) (The discussion being always constructive and enriching...)
Marcelo González Jul 9, 2017:
'Buey al agua llevado, no quiere beber obligado' Dejando de un lado la cuestión de frecuencia de uso (two proverbs may only be rarely equivalent in this regard), esta propuesta (made by John as well) capta muy bien el humor impregnado de sarcasmo del proverbio original, al dejar implícita la comparación de un animal de granja con una persona. As we all know, much of what we do involves choices with accompanying 'loses' and 'gains.' So in a translation such as this, what's 'lost'? Perhaps its frequency of use is not 'equivalent'? But what's gained? A contextually-appropriate, target-language proverb (with a certain literary flare) that retains the animal-based humor of the original proverb, while throwing-in a bit of parallel structure and alliteration to boot, additional effects which may compensate adequately for any loss in naturalness of expression/frequency of use. IMO
Andrew Bramhall Jul 9, 2017:
@Charles Of course, if a person has the capacity of sight and hearing and choose not to use them properly, then that is just wilful ignorance or behaviour; what I am unable to judge is the most idiomatic way to say it in Spanish; that is also why I favour the replies of John and Beatriz here;
Charles Davis Jul 9, 2017:
@Oliver First, I don't agree that "there's none so deaf..." expresses wilful ignorance, unless you are using ignorance in the sense of the act of ignoring, rather than in its proper sense of lack of knowledge. Turning a deaf ear to something doesn't mean being ignorant (unaware) of it; it means wilfully and obstinately ignoring it. And that is the situation here and is what "lead a horse" expresses.

Therefore, in my view, the two proverbs express the same essential meaning in different words. They are not perfectly synonymous. The only way to achieve perfect synonymy is to translate the proverb literally, as you have proposed. But the synonymy you achieve by doing that is only apparent and superficial, because the result is not functionally synonymous; in other words, it does not produce an equivalent effect, because it is simply not a natural thing to say in Spanish in this situation. That is why in many cases, though by no means all, of course, literal translation is not the best option.

Bea's proposal is not perfectly synonymous with the source, but it sounds natural and expresses the essential meaning. I prefer mine, because I think it is closer to the right tone.
Andrew Bramhall Jul 9, 2017:
@John McDove As you so memorably put under an answer of mine to another question " If it waddles and quacks like a duck, it usually is a duck" -unless of course you accidentally mistook it for a guinea fowl or a goose from a distance;
JohnMcDove Jul 9, 2017:
@ Oliver - While I agree with the points you are making, in terms of the subtlety and "exact" meaning, in my view, the basic concept is conveyed with Charles option. That is, it seems to me that is the most "natural" way someone Spanish would deliver that concept. Probably my mom, (who was using Spanish sayings and proverbs like nobody's business) could possibly come up with something like my own proposal, but that it is something somewhat "exceptional". True, I do not negate I like it, but in the context of some average Joe, or average Mary, saying "as the proverb goes", most likely is that the current "urbanite" don't know anything about donkeys or horses. Again, the "full" context would be in order to make an appropriate adjudication. I take that Ana may be amused with all our "talking" trying to bring her towards our river of "data" or "knowledge". The good part of it is, is that she may be thirsty... ;-) Or maybe she is able to hear all of us with a sensitive "audio" perception... :-)
Andrew Bramhall Jul 9, 2017:
Obstinacy v. Wilful Ignorance ..is where I believe the difference lies; that's why I validated the answers of Beatriz, about 'desire' , and John's 'monks and abbots' answers as they reflect this obstinacy, and why I agree with Marcelo's comments; ' there are none so blind/ deaf' indicate wilful ignorance to me; there is a subtle shade of difference in meaning here, I think; this happens every time translations of proverbs are called for in any language pairing, because of the level of subtlety required in matching up the meaning with precision.
Andrew Bramhall Jul 9, 2017:
Why then are there two different sayings in English, " there are none so blind, etc,..." and " you can lead a horse to water, etc..."? If they were exact synonyms, there wouldn't be any need for two distinct sayings; the two have overlap, but are not genuine synonyms IMHO;
Charles Davis Jul 9, 2017:
I would be very happy to reference a farm animal, preferably equine, but I don't think there is any such expression in current use that a Spanish speaker might plausibly use. No speaker would spontaneously refer to horses drinking in Spanish here. If you translate the English proverb you have a translation that sounds like a translation, which for most purposes is exactly what you don't want.
Marcelo González Jul 9, 2017:
I think the best translation here may be the... ...one that conveys the idea of obstinacy, and does so while referencing a farm animal, a (sarcasm-laden) humorous effect that one might strive to reproduce in translation.
Charles Davis Jul 8, 2017:
Lead a horse to water I don't agree that the point of this proverb is simply that "the final step is up to them". That view ignores the connotations of the metaphor the proverb uses. It connotes irrational obstinacy in refusing to do what is in one's own interest. It almost invariably implies that from the speaker's point of view the refusal to "drink" is foolish, even perverse. So obstinacy and stubborn refusal are precisely the point of this proverb. People might in fact have good reasons for rejecting advice or help, just as a horse might have a good reason for refusing to drink, but people who use this proverb are not admitting that possibility.

The difference between refusing advice and refusing help seems to me insignificant. Refusing help, after all, amounts to refusing (at least implicitly) advice to accept help. The point is that the woman is refusing something that is offered to her and that it is in her interest to accept. It means that she is being wilfully deaf to reason. By using this proverb, the speaker is expressing frustration at her obstinacy. In my opinion this implication needs to be present in the translation.
Andrew Bramhall Jul 8, 2017:
"There is none so blind/deaf as he who will not see/hear" isn't exactly the same meaning as 'leading a horse to water....' Leading as horse to water' means you can help people so far along the way in something but the final step is up to them, whereas 'there is none so blind/deaf...'' is about obstinacy and stubborn refusal; there's a subtle difference.
Charles Davis Jul 8, 2017:
@Marcelo Agreed; there can, in principle, be circumstances in which a "foreignising" approach is called for.
Marcelo González Jul 8, 2017:
@Charles - Of course, someone would not... ...usually say: 'From such a stick, such a splinter' when 'the apple doesn't fall from the tree' is a readily available equivalent -- agreed. My point about it being a matter of approach was to underscore that a 'naturalizing' approach is by no means a given, and that this common approach is in opposition to a 'foreignizing' one (i.e., an approach that seeks to underscore the foreignness the source text's culture). Translation of idioms and proverbs can also be used to introduce readers to another way seeing something, such as my foreignized rendering of 'De tal palo, tal astilla,' which some readers, depending on their purposes, may find useful, in addition, perhaps to 'a chip off the old block' or 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.' What would determine the approach is the purpose of the translation.
Charles Davis Jul 8, 2017:
@Marcelo One of the options in Kirsten's first link, "It's like talking to a brick wall", would be very idiomatic in British English here, but I think it would give it a tone of greater annoyance and frustration than is appropriate. It would sound almost contemptuous. I think the speaker's use of the proverb here expresses frustration at the woman's obstinacy, at her refusal to listen to advice (a refusal to listen rather than to see, in my opinion), against her own interests and those of her men, and that element should be reflected in whatever we use, but it should not sound harsh.

I find it difficult to imagine any circumstances whatever in which someone would spontaneously say "From such a stick, such a splinter" in English. It could only be said by one translator of Spanish to another as a joke.

Similarly here, in my opinion, as in most such cases, a literal translation of the English proverb fails the test of producing dialogue that convinces the listener it might actually have been said spontaneously by a Spanish speaker in the same circumstances.
Marcelo González Jul 7, 2017:
@Kirsten - interesting options at the... ...first of your two links, where we even see an English equivalent of one of the proverbs here. A literal rendering sometimes works, e.g., From such a stick, such a splinter (instead of the whole apple thing or chips off old blocks). :-)
Kirsten Larsen (X) Jul 7, 2017:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/poetry_literatu...

http://www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/4278506-you-ca...

Proposed translations

+2
1 hr
Selected

No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver

LatAm or more specifically in Colombia, this is the way it goes.
Peer comment(s):
agree Laura Pascual : En España también se usa este.
1 hr
Mil gracias!
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
1 hr
Mil gracias!
neutral Charles Davis : Yes, it is used in Spain. Both versions exist, but in this case I think "sordo" is more suitable, because it's more a question of refusing to listen than of refusing to see.
13 hrs
It's not about about the senses or lack thereof, nut about the subject's stubborn attitude.
neutral Andrew Bramhall : There is none so blind as he who will not see" isn't precisely the meaning; see my post under ' discussion entries';
1 day 45 mins
neutral Christian [email protected] : I was going to (also) vote for this one, but Charles makes a good point. In THIS case, "sordo" may be just a tiny bit better.
1 day 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for your answer! I decided to take your translation because it was the one that suited the context the most. :)"
+8
26 mins

no hay peor sordo que el que no quiere oír

El sentido de este refrán se expresa correctamente en una de las referencias de Kirsten:

"puedes darle un consejo a alguien, pero no puedes obligarlo a que lo siga"
http://www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/4278506-you-ca...

Pero no es un refrán en español.

En esta página alguien propone:

"Nadie escarmienta por cabeza ajena" (debe ser "en cabeza ajena")
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/you-can-lead-a-horse...
Ver:
http://cvc.cervantes.es/lengua/refranero/ficha.aspx?Par=5915...

No está mal; está claro que expresa una idea similar, pero tampoco es lo mismo y para tu contexto me parece que no vale.

En catalán hay uno ideal, y bastante parecido el inglés:

"Ja pots xiular si l'ase no vol beure"
http://refranyer.dites.cat/2007/05/ja-pots-xiular-si-lase-no...

No existe (que yo sepa) en castellano, pero el refrán que propongo sí que es conocido y dice esencialmente lo mismo. Para mí es el qeu más se acerca.
Note from asker:
Thanks for your answer, Charles. I was really helpful. :) In the end, I decided to take another translation because it was the one that suited the context the most.
Peer comment(s):
agree Leda Roche
10 mins
Gracias, Denise :)
agree Robert Forstag
39 mins
¡Gracias, Robert!
agree Juan Gil : Así trabaja un traductor...! +1000
1 hr
¡Muchas gracias, Juan! Saludos :)
agree Laura Pascual : Si es para España, y quieres un refrán o frase hecha, es la mejor opción.
1 hr
Gracias, Laura :)
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
3 hrs
Gracias y saludos, Bea :)
agree JohnMcDove : ¡¿Mannndeeee?! :-) Me recuerda al dicho del baturro testarudo, con el tren pitando hacia él, mientras camina por la vía: "Chifla, chifla..., que como no te apartes tú..." ;-) Saludos, Charles. /.../ Ah, ese no lo había oído nunca. ¡Es bueno, también! :-))
4 hrs
Y encontré también "El tren pitando y los pavos en la vía". Gracias y saludos, John :)
agree Virginia Asensio
6 hrs
Gracias, Virginia :)
neutral Andrew Bramhall : "There is none so blind/deaf as he who will not see/hear" isn't exactly the same meaning as 'leading a horse to water....; see my post under ' discussion entries'// neither are perfect synonyms though;
1 day 2 hrs
I think it conveys the same meaning, tone and attitude here.
agree Christian [email protected]
1 day 8 hrs
Gracias, Christian :)
Something went wrong...
+4
48 mins

Puedes llevar a un caballo hasta el abrevadero, pero no obligarlo a beber

Hay muchas variaciones en el mismo sentido; puedes llevar a un caballo a beber, pero no puedes hacer que beba/ obligarle a beber;
'puedes llevar a un caballo al agua, pero es él el que ha de desear beber';
Peer comment(s):
agree Marcelo González : A question of approach -- to translate or to use a proverb? In this case, a translation may be an option as well.
2 hrs
Thanks!
agree Kirsten Larsen (X)
3 hrs
Thanks!
agree Mónica Algazi
7 hrs
Gracias
agree JohnMcDove : It could work too. What about this "invention"? "Puedes llevar al caballo al abrevadero, pero no obligarlo a beber, ni aunque seas su caballero"... ;-)
1 day 3 hrs
Yes, why not?
Something went wrong...
+7
4 hrs

no se puede ayudar a quien no se deja

No es un refrán como los del sordo y el ciego que no quieren oír o ver, pero es una frase hecha muy habitual.
He dado mi voto a esas propuestas, pero añado esta porque entiendo que encaja muy bien en el contexto. Se trata de una persona que no rechaza consejos sino la ayuda que se le ofrece.

Pongo algunos ejemplos de este uso:

Pasantías | Centro Juvenil Esperanza
www.programacje.com.ar/pasantias/
28 ago. 2014 - Excelente calidad de personas, muy agradecidas por lo que trataron de hacer con Gabriel pero no se puede ayudar a quien no se deja.

REFLECTIONS FROM NEW ZEALAND: AFRICA – Petrol and Coltan ...
agustindesnudo.blogspot.com/2011/12/africa-petrol-and-coltan-versus.html
1 dic. 2011 - No se puede ayudar a quien no se deja, es así de simple. El resultado lo pagan todos, la naturaleza y los propios africanos.

Derecho del niño a conocer a su padre biologico - PorticoLegal
https://porticolegal.expansion.com/.../derecho-del-nino-a-co...
14 feb. 2012 - 17 entradas - ‎4 autores
Por cierto, me encantaría poder ayudar a mi hermana a normalizar su situación, pero no se puede ayudar a quien no se deja.

La Coalición Cívica se aleja de Arroyo: “Agrupación Atlántica es un ...
www.mdphoy.com/la-coalicion-civica-se-aleja-de-arroyo-agrup...
22 nov. 2016 - La propia Elisa Carrió dijo que no se puede ayudar a quien no se deja ayudar y admitió la preocupación existente tanto en la Casa Rosada ..
Peer comment(s):
agree Kirsten Larsen (X) : Buena opción :-)
3 mins
Gracias Kirsten - Bea
agree Marcelo González
3 hrs
Gracias Marcelo - Bea
agree Ana Brause
3 hrs
Gracias Ana - Bea
agree Charles Davis : Sí que encaja muy bien. Me parece una opción válida.
11 hrs
Muchas gracias Charles - Bea
agree JohnMcDove : En el contexto, las opciones que más me gustan son esta y la de Charles. :-)
11 hrs
Gracias John y buen finde - Bea
agree Gabriela Alvarez
19 hrs
Gracias Gabriela - Bea
agree Andrew Bramhall : That's it;
22 hrs
Agree 100% with your discussion entry! Saludos - Bea
Something went wrong...
+7
8 hrs

Treinta monjes y un abad no pueden hacer beber a un asno contra su voluntad

Aunque esté en desuso, me ha gustado encontrar este refrán, que creo que va como anillo al dedo..., por cuanto usa una metáfora similar.

Treinta monjes y un abad no pueden hacer beber a un asno contra su voluntad.

http://cvc.cervantes.es/lengua/refranero/ficha.aspx?Par=5957...

Saludos cordiales... y rebuznos joviales... ;-))

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2017-07-08 02:44:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ah, y mira, mira... (¡qué bonito y qué antiguadito!)

Buey al agua llevado, no quiere beber obligado.

Con perros que no quieren, no es fácil cazar.

A buey remolón, poco sirve el aguijón.

Citando (que es gerundio)

9. Asinus esuriens fustem negligit.
Esta paremia latina, cuya traducción podría ser “Burro hambriento no hace caso de la vara”,
se viene a corresponder con la española Estómago con hambre no escucha a nadie.
Coincidiendo, aunque sólo en cierto modo, con esta idea, está nuestra significativa paremia
según la cual Treinta monjes y un abad no pueden hacer beber a un asno contra su voluntad,
que trae a la memoria la latina Bos ad aquam tractus non vult potare coactus, que coincide casi
puntualmente con la española Buey al agua llevado, no quiere beber obligado. Y también, en
cierto modo, con la paremia Con perros que no quieren, no es fácil cazar, que el latín expresa
mediante la forma: Invitis canibus, venari haud facile est. Como comenta otra de nuestras
paremias A buey remolón, poco sirve el aguijón.
Para poner de manifiesto la testarudez del asno, el francés dispone, entre otras, de dos
paremias muy expresivas: a. C'est folie de vouloir faire boire un âne qui n'a pas soif y b. Nul ne
peut faire un âne boire si ce n'est quand il a soif

http://cvc.cervantes.es/lengua/paremia/pdf/015/001_cantera.p...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2017-07-08 02:45:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Eratum: "antiCuadito"... ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-07-08 02:48:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ah, mira este gallego:

No llevarán al burro al agua, si él no tiene gana... (sed, diría yo)
http://cvc.cervantes.es/lengua/refranero/ficha.aspx?Par=5957...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2017-07-08 03:56:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ERRatum: "eRRatum"...

Errare humanum est... ;-)

Cuiusvis errare: insipientis nullius nisi, in errore perseverare (Anyone can err, but only the fool persists in his fault)

(¡Qué bien va la Wikipedia, cuando se quiere soltar un latinajo, tipo "piratas de Astérix... ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day12 hrs (2017-07-09 06:22:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

En esta página (pinchando la página del abad) hay alguna versión más, que incluyo, por puro divertimento...

https://books.google.com/books?id=P_GkCwAAQBAJ&dq=Treinta mo...
Peer comment(s):
agree Jesús Pulido Ruiz : Me ha encantado el tuyo, no sé por qué es el que menos votos tiene.
1 hr
Muchas gracias, Jesús. :-) Es que llegué 8 horas detrás del pelotón. Ya lo dice el refrán: "El que se levanta tarde, ni oye misa ni come carne"... ;-) ¡Saludos!
agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro : Ha sido un placer leerte, gracias por compartir esto.
5 hrs
Bueno, muchas gracias, Beatriz, el placer es mutuo... o un placer "tutuo"... "de toos"... ;-)
agree Charles Davis : Una gozada, y me encanta recuperar estas riquezas. Ahora bien, no tengo tan claro que su uso en un diálogo actual sea verosímil... // Burros no faltan, aunque anden a dos patas.
5 hrs
Es cierto. Como dice el CVC, está en desuso... Pues en la actualidad, no nos las tenemos que ver con burros... como antaño... ¿o sí? ... ;-)) (Alguna que otra vez, ¿no?)
agree Marcelo González : Excelente, y no sólo lo del asno (con su 'abad...voluntad') sino también lo del buey, por transmitir el humor sarcástico con una referencia a un animal de granja también asociado con la testardurez: 'buey al agua llevado, no quiere beber obligado'.
8 hrs
Juas-juás... Muchas gracias, Marcelo. :-)
agree Andrew Bramhall : and very well researched;
16 hrs
Thank you very much, Oliver. :-)
agree lorenab23 : 'buey al agua llevado, no quiere beber obligado'. Bravo!!!
1 day 22 hrs
Muchas gracias, Lorenita :-) Lo que yo digo (y no es por echarme piedras a mi propio tejado) es que estas opciones que doy son un poquito "anticuadas". O eso me parece a mí. La verdad es que la opción que más me gusta es la de "no hay peor sordo".. :-)
agree Robert Carter : Igual me queda con lo del "buey"; la frase "you can lead a horse to water" es igual de anticuada a mi parecer.
2 days 12 hrs
Bueno, pues muchas gracias, Robert. :-)
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