F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 22, 2012:

'bugga' might be OK? Research of the 'f-----t' word on M-W.com gave a highly surprising result: the gender switch!
Roy, nous avons tiré a grace de vous, m'sieur !

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 22, 2012:

Love it! Scott, I have just cut and pasted your most recent contribution into my translation. It's gorgeous! About 'faggot': I know it is a terrible word and couldn't/wouldn't be uttered today, but what about 120 years ago, by such low-life as this. Anyway, it is GONE from my translation. No sense stirring up a hornets' nest!

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 22, 2012:

Or second-and-quart, based on 2nd and 2.5th? So, so, mista. Dat pleez me much. I talka sum Dutch too. Wattajoke! I be goddam! Dam yah hide! Leddim choke! Skiddaddle, ol' fart! Beaddit! Git los'!

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 22, 2012:

Catherine, what about a two-and-a-halfth go? :-) The pidgin the old man speaks shows the words a coolie not knowing Dutch would pick up from repeated abusive shouting, in the closest he can come to Dutch, using consonants he can produce (P instead of V, etc). He'll only remember/use short abusive swear words in his ranting at the young man. But the old man still 'knows his place': he says 'menir', a version of 'meneer', Dutch for 'sir' or 'boss', and would be used by a coolie who knows just a tad more than his native 'tuan'. 'What a joke' in your second go is an example of a *well-educated* Indonesian fully conversant in Dutch--which the source shows he is not. Think of Kriol 'mista' for 'menir/mister', 'drap ded' for' perek/drop dead', etc. In fact, converting my English version to Kriol should come closer to the old man's level. Then to Eng-US. Do plz. drop 'faggot' for the Eng-US market; Jack might repeat his admonition--without smilie. ;-)
But what about translating into Indonesian/Malay, then applying Kriol before going to Eng-US? All the knowledge garnered here is still relevant & highly useful.

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 22, 2012:

Second go at it... Apparently the guy is a well-known loud-mouth and jerk, who talks in pidgin Dutch. So, on second go, I'm looking at using "So, so, boy. That please me very much. I talkee Dutch, too. What a joke! I'll be God damned! Let him choke on his own vomit! The old fart should piss off, the faggot. He can go to hell!"

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

OK, Jack, thanks. I didn't notice the :-)!

Jack den Haan Mar 21, 2012:

I was just joking, Catherine. Hence the smiley!

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

Offensive question? Jack, since I didn't know what the phrase meant, how was I to suspect it might be offensive? Also, that language is hardly offensive, IMHO, just a bit uncouth. No one seems to have been offended, to my knowledge, certainly not me.

Jack den Haan Mar 21, 2012:

Oh dear, this should have been marked as a potentially offensive question Catherine :-)

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

Dear Katerina, There is no way to share points but unless someone proposes an answer, no one will get any! Why don't you go ahead and put up an answer for that sentence.
I may not leave the Dutch text in and may not use footnotes. It is a novel, intended for an English-speaking audience and must above all be readable. It's not important that every word be completely and accurately translated, but rather that the main thrust of the speech is represented in a way that progresses the work in a readable and interesting manner. I am so impressed with the communal contribution that all of you have made and am greatly indebted to all of you, but especially to you for pulling it all together for me. Many, many thanks. Now go for the points!

katerina turevich Mar 21, 2012:

Dear Catherine, It’s difficult to say something about your translation. It’s highly difficult to judge without the immediate context. You would of course know better how to put it all together. What I did was summarize the comments from everybody in this discussion. Especially Roy’s and Frank’s insights were instrumental in my understanding of this utterance. Hats off, my dear colleagues! So I think, the points should really be shared. I am not sure how to do it. The honor is completely communal in this case.
I should mention, not that it actually makes any difference in your text, but I had omitted Roy’s suggestion that “Kedok” (in “kedokmiter’) is a perversion of “kedhok ("mask")”, and in that case in English it becomes ‘a “lowly mask”. Perhaps it becomes a”boss” in your text?
I also wonder… wouldn’t it be better if you left the sentence in Dutch in the body of the text, and inserted your translation as a small footnote? This sentence, it’s quite beautiful and it for sure deserves a reader (in the original).

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

This is what I've decided on... I've compressed the rather long, drawn-out speech into the following: "So, so, mister. That pleases me immensely. I speak some Dutch, too. God damn that boss of yours! The old fart should drown in his own vomit, the moron!" What do you think?

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 21, 2012:

Thank you Catherine Thank you for the book info. I *will* keep an eye peeled for it!

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

Now for some points... Katerina, maybe you would like to post a suggested translation of "Setiken met him, donderen op, ouwe sok, kedokmiter, perèk, lopen jou naden man" so I can award some points!

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

To F. Scott Ophof The book, entitled 'Hikayat Siti Mariah', written in Malay lingua franca, with smatterings of Dutch, and published in serialized form during the period 1910-12, was compiled into a book, with an intro (in Indonesian) by Pramoedya Ananta Toer, in 2003. It is now out of print. There is no Dutch version; it was the first truly indigenous piece of literature written in what is now Indonesia. My translation will be published later this year by Lontar Foundation, Jakarta. Keep an eye out for it on Lontar's website www.lontar.org/

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 21, 2012:

Two copies plz, Catherine! Sadly enough I don't read Malay/Indonesian, but I'm very much interested in a Dutch copy (if available) and the English one (when in print). Any way you could keep me up to date? Thanks in advance!

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 21, 2012:

Dear Katerina, Thanks so much for putting it all together for me. Did something get chopped off at the end?

katerina turevich Mar 21, 2012:

some last words “Perek” probably represents “verrek” and that goes for “Go to Hell!” “Drop dead!” or the like.
“lopen jou naden man” is unquestionably “Loop naar de maan, jij” and that in English would be (literary) “Go walk to the moon, you!”, or better “Go get lost, man!” “Get away from me, man!”

katerina turevich Mar 21, 2012:

Hi Catherine, The following comments are a summary of everything said by everybody in this discussion plus some little of my own thoughts. But just to put it all in English for you:

So, so mister! That pleases me immensely! I speak some Dutch too, mister!
Here we go breaking it all up:
“Sapperlop” so far has two options. 1. “Sapperdelap” a phrase introduced by Pipo De Clown on Dutch TV and in that case it means “What a joke!” “I am flabbergasted!”
‘Sapperlop” could also be (and that’s more likely) a perversion of “"Sakkerloot (of sapperloot)” and in that case it’s more like “Holy Baptism!”, ‘Holy Mary/Virgin”.
“Kod perdom” is unquestionably “God Damned!”
“Setiken met him” is anything you like probably out of the series “Let’m choke” “let’m drown in his own…”
“Donderen op” is “Get lost!”
“Ouwe sok” = old man, old fart
“Kedokmiter” = 1. ‘Sodomite’ : “mieter” = a twit, a nothing, a gaynose, and “Kedok” being a region in Indonesia, just the same as a nitwit from Sodom is called a ‘sodomite’.
“Kedokmiter” can also be a highly perverted (accent, illiteracy, old language) form of the Dutch idiom “Goede dag, meneer!” and in that case it is approx.. “Hello, Mister!” or :”Have a nice day, mister!”
“P

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 21, 2012:

Taking Roy's translation and Henk's comments So, so, sir. That pleases me. I also know a bit of Dutch, sir. By Jove. G*dd*mn. Let him choke, skedaddle, old goat, beat it, shit, get out of here, you!

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 21, 2012:

Catherine, here are my Dutch comments in English [Die oude man is echt niet blij, zachtjes uitgedrukt!] ==> [That old man doesn't seem too happy, to put it mildly!]
Niet echt, L.J. Maar het lijkt me ook wat afrikaanse te hebben. 'Sarie Mareis'? ==> Not really, L.J. But it does seem a bit South African. The song 'Sarie Mareis'?
Roy, ik trek m'n 'sapper(de)lap' terug; jouw 'sapperloot' is het precies! ==> Roy, I retract my 'sapper(de)lap', your 'sapperloot' is exactly it!

The rest of my Dutch is the translation, at least the few bits Roy didn't get right off inserted in his translation.

Henk, indeed; not a negative mood but the old man sure sounds like he's scolding the young man. 'Up one side and down the other', one might say in the USA.

Catherine Muir (asker) Mar 20, 2012:

To Phil Goddard The novel is the first truly Indonesian work, i.e., written in the lingua franca of the day, for a native, rather than Dutch, audience. I am now in chapter 14 of 20. There has been Dutch in dribs and drabs all through the book but this particular character speaks Dutch more than any of the previous characters. I do not speak Dutch, which is why I need help with these excerpts. For that reason, I can't decipher the discussions above, either. If at all possible, I would appreciate the discussion and answers be in English.

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 20, 2012:

L.J. & Roy Niet echt, L.J. Maar het lijkt me ook wat afrikaanse te hebben. 'Sarie Mareis'?
Roy, ik trek m'n 'sapper(de)lap' terug; jouw 'sapperloot' is het precies!

Henk Peelen Mar 20, 2012:

not sure whether the use of foul language represtents a negative mood of the speaker. Maybe he only performs the "banding like a Dutchman" attitude. Anyway, I also give "goeiedag met jou" a change as transcription for kedogmiter: go fly a kite!, go jump in the lake!, beat it!
Or "goedendag met hem" = he can go to the blazes

Roy vd Heijden Mar 20, 2012:

seperlop 'seperlop' is hier waarschijnlijk eerder een verbastering van 'sapperloot' dan het enigszins pipo-de-clowneske 'sapper(de)[f]lap'.

Cf.:

"Sakkerloot (of sapperloot).
Wellicht eene verbastering van lat. sacra lotio, heilige doop (De Vries, Warenar, bl. 991); fr. saprebleu, saprelotte, saperlotte, sapremâtin, sarpedié, enz.2); in het hd. sackerlot naast sapperlot, dat wij ook kennen (vgl. het 17de-eeuwsche seker naast seper; sacristi naast sapristi (fr. sapristi) en sapperdebleu, d.i. sacre Dieu)."
(http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/stoe002nede01_01/stoe002nede01_01_...

L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen Mar 20, 2012:

F Scott Verdraaid ... jy kent de taal wel! Ben het 100% met je eens1

Roy vd Heijden Mar 20, 2012:

kedokmiter "Het woord gedhog is een verbastering van het woord kedhok ("masker")."
(http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wajang#Wajang_gedog)
Miter = mieter = lichaam, donder, sodemieter?
Of mijter, vgl. 'geen mieter' = helemaal niets?
Een hoge mieter is een hele vent. Wellicht is een 'kedokmiter' het tegenovergestelde daarvan.
(zie tevens: http://gtb.inl.nl/openlaszlo/my-apps/GTB/Productie/HuidigeVe...

F Scott Ophof (X) Mar 20, 2012:

Only filled in Roy's blanks. Prachtig stukkie! Zo, zo, meneer. Dat doet mij genoegen. Ik ken/spreek ook een beetje Hollands, meneer. Sapper(de)lap, GVD. laat hem stikken, donder op, ouwe sok, sodemieter, verrek, loop naar de maan, jij!
[Die oude man is echt niet blij, zachtjes uitgedrukt!]

Henk Peelen Mar 20, 2012:

Do agree with Roy I think perek = verrek! Seems logical. Otherwise (but less porbably) p belongs to kedokmiter, so kedokmiter-p erek = sodemieter op vrek
perheps him is not hem, but hen: setiken met hen = let them ...

Roy vd Heijden Mar 20, 2012:

Zo, zo, meneer. Dat doet mij genoegen. Ik ken Holland ook een beetje, meneer. [Sodemieter op?], GVD. […] met hem, donder op, ouwe sok, […]mieter, [perèk = nu, meteen?] loop naar de maan, jij!

philgoddard Mar 20, 2012:

Can you tell us what research you've done? You've obviously done some if you know what languages these words are.